Welcome to our column, The Debate, where the Mercury sport team discuss the big issues in Illawarra, national and international sport. This week MITCH JENNINGS and CAMERON MEE discuss The Last Dance, the Michael Jordan documentary that's currently taking the sport-less world by storm - and wade into the never-ending GOAT DEBATE.
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Jennings: Well Darnell, there's no doubt The Last Dance would have attracted huge attention whenever it was released but, when there's no other sport to keep us occupied, it's basically taken over the world. I've found it very entertaining, enthralling even, but I was kind of expecting a warts and all peek behind the curtain; I don't think we've learned anything we didn't already know about MJ and his legacy. It's added fresh fuel to that GOAT debate, we'll get to that in a tic, but what are your thoughts on doco?
Mee: I agree with you there. I was expecting a pretty in-depth look at the 1998 season, but instead the documentary has focused on Jordan's career as a whole. I've thoroughly enjoyed it and it's been interesting to have a deeper look at events I had a small understanding of, but I would have liked to follow Jordan and the Bulls through the week to week grind of an NBA season and all the drama that entails along the way. What's been the most interesting thing you've learnt from the six episodes that have been released?
Jennings: For me it has reaffirmed his greatness, probably the most intense competitor ever, but not a lot of new insights do far. I certainly don't think it adds anything new to the GOAT debate, the cynic in me is also not surprised MJ gave the project the go-ahead not long after LeBron James' heroics against the Warriors in the 2016 Finals. I guess that's a good jumping off point because we're at odds on this, "I think MJ and it's not even close" was your take when we couched this one. Explain yourself counsel.
Mee: I think it's clear MJ is concerned about LeBron taking over his mantle as the best ever but I don't think he has anything to worry about. There's no denying James is an incredible player and his longevity is a true testament to the way he's looked after his body. But Jordan's career achievements are greater than James'. MJ has six titles to LeBron's three and five NBA MVPs to James' four. How can you argue against rings and trophies?
Jenno: Yeah, so I guess you put Bill Russell (11 rings) ahead MJ? No, me neither, but I'm glad you brought up the 'rings' argument.
People are always quick to use LeBron's finals record against him, but it's a simplistic case for simple minds. It tries to make the remarkable achievement of reaching eight straight Finals count against him.
In the 2007 Eastern Conference he took the Cavs from 0-2 down, averaging a triple-double, to beat the top seed Pistons to reach his first Finals at 22. He virtually got them there himself but then getting swept by a prime 'big three' Spurs is his first blemish? That season's his first failure? It counts against him in a way Jordan's Conference failures against the Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons don't?
You can add Kawhi Leonard to the 2014 Spurs and that's before we even get to the Warriors dynasty. In 2015 he took a Warriors side so stacked Andre Igudala was Finals MVP - off the bench - to six games. He did it without Kevin Love or Kyrie Irving while averaging 35, 13 and 8. Another 'failure' right?
A year later he beat the 73-win Warriors from 3-1 down and led ALL statistical categories. The Warriors responded by recruiting Kevin Durant and LeBron averages 34, 8 and 10 against two MVP's and two other future Hall of Famers; with Kevin Love and JR Smith as a supporting cast. MJ never faced Finals opposition that stiff, not close.
Off all the arguments you can make in comparing these two specific players, the 'rings argument' is the most flawed.
Mee: Eight straight finals is a major achievement and something James should be congratulated for, but let's be real, he was playing in a pretty weak Eastern Conference throughout much of that time. Also, let's not discount the impact Draymond Green's suspension had on the 2016 Finals.
Your reference to James' finals defeats is what makes Jordan the greatest ever for me. All through James' career he has had players who challenged his mantle to the best player in the league. Whether it be Kobe, Duncan, Curry or Durant, James always had someone nipping at his heels. Did this make him better? No doubt. But it also shows why Jordan is the GOAT. The gap between Jordan and the next best player in the league was always pretty stark.
We saw it in the documentary in the 1992 Finals against Portland. People thought maybe Clyde Drexler was as good as Jordan and he immediately shut that down. A year later the Bulls came up against a great Suns side led by the MVP Charles Barkley. But did anyone really think Barkley was better than Jordan? No. When the Warriors played the Cavs in 2017 and 2018, it could legitimately be argued Durant was the best player on the court and his performances backed that up.
Maybe if James had been surrounded by a better supporting cast throughout his career we'd have seen him take his game to another level, beyond that of Jordan. But based on what we saw and have seen so far, for me, MJ's best was simply better than James.
Jennings: Those Portland and Phoenix teams don't go near those Warriors or Spurs. There's been ebbs and flows but, as a complete package, LeBron has been the best player in the NBA for all but a handful of his seasons in the league - still is in season number 17! You wanna talk about the second best player in the league, MJ had that guy next to him in Scottie Pippen for virtually his entire career, all his championships. When MJ left to play baseball (if he hadn't the Bulls might have won eight straight and we wouldn't be having this conversation), the Bulls went from 57 wins to 55 with Scottie. When Lebron first left Cleveland they went from 61 wins... to 19.
You do make an interesting point about what we've seen so far. James isn't finished yet and that seems to be what terrifies Jordan fans. I absolutely love Michael, like most LeBron devotees, I think there's a hair or two in it. On the flip-side, MJ fans hate LeBron, with vitriol, and it's because they're scared of what he still might do. They want to make the gap seem bigger now than it is. It's why they also had no problem idolising Kobe (my favourite player ever), because he was MJ 2.0 but wasn't going past him. LeBron has, or at least might, and they hate it.
Of course we're not settling it here, I really think there's no wrong answer in the debate, but channel Jerry Springer and give us your final thought.
Mee: I agree with a lot of your final points, for someone who has made very few mistakes off the court, LeBron has faced a significant amount of criticism and scrutiny over every little move he makes. Right now Jordan is the GOAT and people will be debating this for years, but maybe if LeBron is able to snare a couple of titles in LA, the pendulum might swing towards him.